Forum:Von Pinn

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Question

Very recently ✣ , the frightening and mysterious Von Pinn revealed some fascinating details about her construction, her loyalties, and her relationship to Lucrezia Mongfish. What exactly can we deduce from what she said?

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More questions?

Well, damn. Did anyone see that coming?

So is it safe to assume the King she's talking about is in fact Andronicus Valois? And if so, why did he give that particular order? That's a very odd interpretation of "safe".

And I take it by Carson's statement, "a construct of the Lady Lucrezia's" that Von Pinn came in with her? If so, where was Von Pinn in the interim? With the Knights of Jove?

— m ^(talk) 04:26, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Mebee Carson vas chust wrong? Keepink un "ear to da ground" zumtimes chust gifs hyu trash in hyu ears. Dis King iz un "romantic" - sure sounds lak Valois all right. Und "safe" seems to aczept safe und dead iz Hokay konditions. Zo iz dis vhy zo many gorl Sparks dunt survive? Iz dey all vaiting in zum Valois graveyard for re-animashun zo der shtory can be zure to go on? Effen Hy find dot a bit ghastly! Altgorl 07:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Und anozzer zing. Do ve really know how alt Lucrezia iz? Altgorl 10:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

• I take that "my beloved king" is probably Andronicus Valois. "Over two hundred years" roughly fits the timeline. "Has charged me with the solemn duty to protect you" might have 2 meanings: either Andronicus has charged Von Pinn with the duty to protect the female Heterodyne heir (i.e. Euphrosynia, which would explain the "romantic fool" remark) and the order is related to Agatha too or Andronicus is really Tarvek with a time machine (which Phil mentioned in Othar's twitter couple of days ago) and he did build Von Pinn to protect Agatha specifically.
• "My creator did not charge me with your protection" seems to contradict with the earlier "My beloved king has charged me with the solemn duty to protect you". Could it be that Von Pinn's creator and her beloved king were two separate persons? Is she a Van Rijn too? Did her creator (Van Rijn or otherwise) order her to keep any female Heterodyne heirs safe (for those around them)? He knew what Agatha would be. Perhaps, Euphrosynia became something that some of her peers did not like? Does Von Pinn's remark about guarding tombs imply that she killed Euphrosynia and/or other female Heterodynes (or Sparks in general)?
• Remark about Lucrezia seems clear: Von Pinn was instead (contradictory to the original orders) compelled to defend Agatha's life.

More questions than answers. -- Muzzafar 10:21, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Pinn is a creation of Van Rijn. His works, the muses, were clank-constructs, i.e. mechanical creations or robots. Pinn is organic enough to be susceptible to sleeping gas. It seems more likely Pinn was made by the Storm King himself, and given orders but with a rather flexible definition of "safe." Grumpy Celt

Whatever the case, it looks like we won't be finding out from von Pinn herself. Agatha will probably keep on blasting through into Castle deathtraps until Pinn gives her life to save Agatha's, and Agatha probably won't even stop to think that von Pinn is probably the only person who could answer her questions about what really happened at Castle Heterodyne the night of the attack until it's too late. --Tatter D 22:07, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

It occurs to me that no one has actually asked the Castle what happened that night. -Grumpy Celt66.82.9.74 21:04, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I don't know about that -- I suppose it would have its own drama, but I don't have the feeling we're quite done with Von Pinn yet. My guess is that we'll at least get some more explanation and probably some kind of interruption to Agatha's fury first. PersephoneKore 22:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think Muzzafar's second point above reflects not a contradiction, but an explicit distinction on Von Pinn's part between her beloved king, who charged her to protect, and her creator, who charged her (with slightly odd phrasing) to protect others from.

I suspect "You are the Heterodyne Girl" of being a key phrase here, and if the "beloved king" was indeed the Storm King, that would make sense with the "romantic fool" comment -- and raises questions about both the legend and history of how Valois's obsession with finding Euphrosynia again led to his ruin. On the other hand, looking at Von Pinn's insistence that "keep you safe" can mean "keep you safe for other people to be around" and that "protect" can be satisfied by "kill and guard the tomb," I'm not sure if it really works to think she'd be stuck applying commands to any "Heterodyne girl" that were originally intended to be about Euphrosynia. So time travel is an option. I'm also half wondering if something about the Geisterdamen could be involved even that far back.

Lucrezia did something (reprogramming, surgery, wasp mind control, simply adding her own orders as an acknowledged authority?) to eliminate Von Pinn's option to interpret "protect" as "kill and guard the tomb." We saw that Von Pinn found herself compelled not to harm Zulenna, and we were told that she had never hurt any of the kids; if she's compelled not to harm anyone who is or has been in her charge, is that also new and all down to Lucrezia, or is it longer term?

And for the record, yes, I was taken entirely by surprise. Until the latest comic, I thought Lucrezia had built Von Pinn herself and that Von Pinn had gone crazy because of Klaus Barry's death. PersephoneKore 22:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with your notes, and point out the theory I added to the Mad page that she killed Euphrosynia herself before the additional blocks were put in. -- Corgi 00:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. If the grave would protect Agatha, I suppose it would protect Euphrosynia from Ogglespoon. Since the only timeline I could find for Andronicus Valois was Master Payne's remark that the Muses had survived for over one hundred years, though, there's at least a chance that the "beloved king" might be someone else, although I admit it's not definitive, and having her origin lie with Andronicus Valois does tie up many loose ends. --Quadibloc 12:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

If Gil were in a condition to stick an oar in what would he say ✣ about Von Pinn? According to his experiences and memories was Von Pinn fair and reasonable with him? Would Gil stand up for her? Would he intervene against her? --Rej^¿¤¤? 01:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Interesting question. I'm not sure he's ever even mentioned her. Sleipnir (IIRC) mentioned that she was especially strict with Gil; she also explained that Von Pinn loved and cared for the kids, but they were still scared to death of her. I don't think he'd care much for her treatment of Agatha -- or of Adam and Lilith -- but it occurs to me that he might have some idea how to get her cooperation. PersephoneKore 03:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Has now! ✣ --Rej^¿¤¤? 01:37, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

I speculate that Von Pinn *is* a van Rijn, for the following reasons: she is the most formidable, best-built construct we know of. As we know, she literally tore Adam and Lilith apart. We also know that they were pretty darn formidable constructs (built by the Heterodyne Boys, years of adventures, fighting the Other ... and Adam had just single-handedly disabled everyone else in the room, including Klaus!) Sure, she doesn't look like the Muses, but they were built to enlighten and entertain. Von Pinn's function, we now know, is different. Surely "the greatest spark of all time" wouldn't be limited only to lifelike clank-constructs, no matter how sophisticated. Also, van Rijn's work is the only spark work we know of that's at least 200 years old AND still ahead of all modern sparks. Klaus was able to improve Beetle's war-clanks in a few years. Don't you think he'd have duplicated von Pinn, if he were able to? (Think: army of Von Pinns). He hasn't, so it's reasonable that he can't. -- Kretzer 04:28, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Dis depends on vot hyu think ov Jägers. Are ve "spark work" alzo? Ve iz alt enuf... Ve iz not Andronican. Vot are de odds Von Pinn iz more lak unto us? Altgorl 10:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

In part, you Jägers support my point: true, Klaus hasn't been able to duplicate you either, *but* that may be in large part because Jägers won't let any non-Heterodyne work on them. And even with that limitation, Klaus has figured out *a lot* about the Jägers, as Mama Gkika discovered when she fixed Gil up. Plus, we can probably rule out Von Pinn being a Heterodyne creation, because she has both "a king" and "a creator" who are different people, a king who was a "romantic fool" at that (doesn't sound like anything we know from Heterodyne history) -- BUT she was also clearly made to "keep safe/protect" a Heterodyne Girl, so only Andronicus / van Rijn / Euphrosynia seem to fit the bill. Not that Von Pinn couldn't have been MODIFIED by one or more Heterodynes along the way, and Lucrezia for that matter... -- Kretzer

There are some good riddles here. What happens if you had a muse take a Jäger draught? --Rej^¿¤¤? 00:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

What happens if you pour a glass of beer into your PC? Your PC will probably not work very well after that. -- Muzzafar 11:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

The other good riddle is how did Lucrezia, may her bones burn green, manage to compel Von Pinn against her original programming? Can that be repeated? Can Agatha or Gil or even the Baron figure out how to do it? --Rej^¿¤¤? 00:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. In both cases we know of so far, Von Pinn's "modifications" seem to have been added compulsions or restrictions. It sounds like Lucrezia basically closed a loophole, though how is certainly a good question! PersephoneKore 01:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

One obvious way (Lucrezia + mind control = ?) is a slaver wasp. The only question is whether slaver wasps work on constructs. We know that a special wasp can work (and has worked) on a Spark (who also happens to be a construct). (However, I believe I have read that the Jägermonter - who are most probably a special case of constructs - are not affected by slaver wasps.)

A slaver wasp would explain the fact that Von Pinn involuntarily follows Agatha's voice commands (as in "Put me down, you wretched construct" ✣ ) in a fashion very similar to how some known ✣ Revenants react ✣ to Agatha's voice. And why Von Pinn is compelled to protect Agatha's life with her own. -- Muzzafar 11:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Probably depends on the construct. It is the first thought that comes to mind with Lucrezia -- I mentioned it among other possibilities above -- but I'm dubious about it in this case. We know personnel on Castle Wulfenbach got screened with wasp weasels; I suppose Von Pinn could have ducked it, or been caught out and pulled a jailbreak when the Torchmen showed up, but it seems like a slightly odd thing to leave out for the sake of drama. Maybe the Foglios just thought it was obvious. Still, I lean toward the alternate explanation that a number of constructs (technically including the wasps themselves, probably) seem to be created for obedience. Lucrezia could conceivably have inherited/acquired her allegiance (though not any fondness) in some other way.PersephoneKore 13:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

We focus on Agatha being a Heterodyne; the Heterodyne heir. Clearly she is, because the castle has confirmed it. But she is also a Mongfish. Could Von Pinn's contradictory instructions stem from this? Has she been ordered at different times to "keep everyone safe from the Heterodyne heir" and also "protect the Mongfish descendants"? Remember the time when everyone was discussing Agatha's parentage and Von Pinn said, "Klaus, she is mine". Did she say that as having a fragment of Lucrezia's personality; being her mother? And when Agatha said "Put me down, you wretched construct" and Von Pinn had to obey, surely that was more likely because Agatha was a Mongfish (Lucrezia's instructions) than because she was a Heterodyne? (Brrokk 10:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC))

Beetle

Did Tarsus Beetle ever meet Von Pinn? If she were a muse, he's the person most likely to recognize her as such. Even if she's a non-muse creation of Van Rijn, Beetle might have recognized her as such from his research. --DryBrook 00:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Which muse?

If von Pinn is a muse, what is she the muse of?

Plus, suddenly the current location of Tinka and Moxanna becomes more important, as the muses grow more functional when brought close together. Are the sisters still in Castle Sturmvoraus? --DryBrook 00:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

What's she the muse of?

PAIN --What's-his-face 03:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

There is a chance that Von Pinn may have originally been Otilia, the Muse of Protection. We know that Lucrezia was interested in consciousness transferrence, and according the Otilia/Castle clank, towards the end she was interested in conciousness transferance from the artificial to the organic, and between artificial. What if Lucrezia decided to transfer the Otilia-brain to the Von Pin flesh construct? The advantages of having the flesh construct would be that Lucrezia could "add" whatever was needed (such as obedience to Lucrezia), but retain the Muse-drive for protection. This would explain why Von Pinn makes reference to her beloved king of 200 years ago, despite the fact that there is no record of Van Rijn showing an interest in flesh construct. It would also explain why the Otilia/Castle clank told Agatha that the results of Lucrezia's experiments lay at the bottom of the pit - where Von Pinn had been dropped.

On a side note, Lucrezia may have tried to tinker with the Castle clank's artificial consciousness as well - eventually causing the damaged split personality. Perhaps one aspect was deliberately trapped by her in Otilia's body.

A Chilling thought

For two hundred years the Heterodynes have produced very few female heirs. Science suggests that as many Heterodyne women should have been born as men. So why so few heirs like Agatha? Has Von Pinn been protecting the world from Heterodyne females for 200 years? Keeping them safe by watching their graves?

There were several other memorials on the floor of the Heterodyne crypt. Are those the innocent daughters of Heterodyne? Watched over and kept safe by Van Rijn's Von Pinn?

When the goddess of the Geisterdamen changed Von Pinn's directives did she just change their polarity? Does that account for Klaus Barry's dimise? Will the next 200 years be full of Girl Geniuses??? --Rej^¿¤¤? 14:18, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

While science does, at its most basic, suggest that there should be 1 Heterodyne girl born for every 1.1 Heterodyne boys, genetics can play a factor in that. While this doesn't negate your theory of Von Pinn being a perpetual baby-murdering machine (even if I greatly doubt that myself) sometimes a family's genetics simply don't play towards the expected boy/girl balance. I personally know a family where, through the past three generations, ~50 children had been born...only four of them being girls. And apparently, based on family history, four was a LARGE number of girls to be born for that clan in that length of time. It's primarily the father's genes that go into determining the gender of a child, so if a man who's predisposed to having sons, and he's the founder of the clan, the rate of sons born can start snowballing as an effect. The explanation for the lack of Heterodyne females could be very simple and non-trauma inducing. --What's-his-face 14:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about the GG universe, but in the universe we live in, gender is determined by whether there are two X chromosomes or one X and one Y, and guys have to have one of each. In the normal way of things, there would need to be an approximately 50% chance of either gender for each infant. If there's a family where there are very few female children born, it suggests that there is an X-chromosome based recessive gene with highly unhealthy consequences, such that very few female fetuses survives long past conception. What's surprising is that whatever this gene is, there is a dominant gene on the Y chromosome that routinely overrides it-- there's not a lot of genetic information in the Y chromosome. So I can see that it could be plausible that the Heterodynes don't run to many female children by heredity... though I think it's just as likely that earlier Heterodynes either aborted them or otherwise ensured that female heirs didn't survive. In any case, if Von Pinn arrived with Lucrezia, she wouldn't be the cause of early female infant mortality in previous Heterodyne generations. But her phrasing "the Heterodyne Girl" is interesting. Von Pinn's "beloved king" knew, 200 years ago, that a Heterodyne Girl would be dangerous. ANY Heterodyne girl? Agatha in particular? Have there BEEN any Heterodyne Girls other than Agatha since Euphrosyne? Also, I still don't think it's likely that Von Pinn is a Van Rijn creation. The work we've seen that she most closely resembles is actually by the Heterodyne Boys themselves -- Punch and Judy. I suspect Von Pinn is a time traveler, or, more likely, her creator was. (Note that we haven't seen either of the Boys in quite some time.) From Othar's Twitter, it would seem that time windows only allow one to send one's consciousness back in time. If one of the Boys went back and influenced/possessed Andronicus, that could explain Von Pinn's origin. Barry seemed to have a clue that Agatha was going to be potentially dangerous, and he was worried. Which brings me to my other Mad Theory, that the Other is Lucrezia from the future possessing Lucrezia from the past (and now Agatha), to do things that make sense from some future perspective. Suppose, for example, that Lucrezia really did love Bill, but her future self suffered through his loss due to countless fights with other Sparks? I suppose I should save that for some other page, though. Nekokami 15:57, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

In addition to genetic differences directly relating to conception and development, there are also gender ratio differences based on social standing and profession. Gender ratios vary by region. None of these ratios explain the dearth of Heterodyne family females, but as What's-his-face noted there are families with long-term records of "gender-bias". (Most of those are probably random—with millions of families you will eventually get unlikely combinations.) Argadi 17:02, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Is Von Pinn completely right about herself?

So Von Pinn talks about her Creator, and her beloved king, a long time ago, which does suggest van Rijn and the Storm King. On the other hand, the works of a spark have a certain style to them, and Von Pinn really doesn't look like she belongs to the same body of work as the Muses. And Von Pinn does have some severe internal conflicts of priorities. She obeys Lucrezia's directives, but hates doing so.

I'm thinking Von Pinn might be an early, flawed attempt of Lucrezia's at imposing her consciousness on something else. Perhaps having the winged muse in possession, she built something that was partially a clone of herself, partly a monkey-see monkey-do copy of the muse, tried to imprint on it, and got ... this. It has some of the memories and priorities of the clank, some of Lucrezia's, and is one ill-adjusted construct. Xyzzyzzyx 02:46, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

Is von Pinn actually Otilia?

Today's schtrip zeemz to support dis, vhen von Pinn says to Der Kestle/Otilia, "Vhat hef hyu done to my body?" Hif Lucrezia trensferred her conshusnezz hinto a conschtruk body det she could control by her voice, den Otilia might be a liddle upset. How did she get part of Der Kestle into the mekak mekec clenk body?

Hoh, dear. Hy zee det Vhat's-hiz-fess beat me to it, nine monts ako. Schmott guy! But vhy did hyu call it Pain?

"beloved king/my creator" dichotomy

This would probably address the "beloved king/my creator" dichotomy - vonPinn has two creators: The Storm King who made and programmed Otilia and whoever built her construct body (Lucrezia?). That might also explain the spilt personality.

Also, we know the Mongfishes were active in the Knights of Jove (according to Pinky anyway) and the Knights of Jove carried the legacy of the Storm King - who better to have had one of his Muses as a resource? Let us suppose then that Lucrezia was given Otilia as a bodyguard by her father and his fellow Knights when she infiltrated the Heterodyne family on their behalf. At some point she built a construct body - or took a pre-existing construct and downloaded Otilia's personality into it, possibly because she wanted a less conspicuous bodyguard, possibly to test her mind transfer rig and possibly because she wanted the clank for something else. Hence, vonPinn.

How the castle ended up in the Muse is another question - perhaps the transfer was part of 'The Other's' attack on the Castle, breaching the defences by fragmenting the the controlling AI...

Squaring Everything Up

As best as I can see, this is what must have happened.

1. Two hundred years prior to current events, Otilia was told by a King, presumably Andronicus, but perhaps Tarvek, to "keep Agatha safe."
2. Along came Lucrezia 180 years later, constructing Von Pinn and then transferred Otilia's consciousness/personality into Von Pinn's freshly made and inactive body. Clearly, we are, dealing with something that goes beyond mere electricity and mechanics.
3. For reasons yet to be revealed, Lucrezia subsequently transferred a key part of Castle Heterodyne's consciousness, the part that tied all of its systems together, into whatever it is that Otilia uses for a CPU. Otilia's CPU is clearly small enough to fit into its head, which is quite a technical feat when you consider that it is mechanical and fits into a box smaller than an early Macintosh computer.
4. When the Castle's defensive systems went down, The Other attacked.
5. What happened during the attack is not yet clear. Lucrezia may be innocent, doubtful but possible. Lucrezia might well be whole heartedly collaborating with The Other or may even be The Other.
6. On the other hand, what may have emerged from the attack could be an amalgamation of The Other and Lucrezia Heterodyne. It is impossible for me to say at this point.
7. When Von Pinn claims that she has waited two hundred years to fulfill her purpose, she is not kidding but is speaking of her inner-self--her Otilia consciousness.

I would appreciate it if any who read this recent rumination of mine would offer their version of what must have happened. Billy Catringer 21:06, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

This is how I see it:
Von Pinn is a Van Rijn, but not in her original body. Her original body is that of Otilia, Muse of Protection. There are several things to support this, namely: (1) She references the Otilia clank form as "my body". (2) She references a male creator and that she is a bicenturian: this, as far as I can see, fits with the timeline for being a Van Rijn. (3) She says it outright: "Even in this miserable flesh, I am Otilia--the muse of protection!"

Somehow, Otilia ended up at Castle Heterodyne (since it is Castle Heterodyne, and with the family history, this could have occured quite a few ways). Someone, likely Lucrezia, had made the Von Pinn construct body, and moved the mind of Otilia into this form, thus creating a muse in a form that does not look at all like a typical Van Rijn. At some point she also put the Castle consciousness in the Otilia body. Lucrezia also put the voice command into Otilia/Von Pinn; however, this appears to have not been entirely successful; Von Pinn has 'found ways to break your hold' (speaking to Lucrezia in Agatha's body at this point).

Therefore, Von Pinn's 'beloved King' would likely be the Storm King, as that was who the muses were made for. This of course does leave the questions of how Van Rijn would know what Agatha 'would be' or why the Storm King would want Agatha to be protected (given the timeline, it's very interesting how they would know anything about Agatha at all!). Maybe that is the hole in my theory, but it seems to be the explanation given what has been said.

There does seem to be some contradiction within Von Pinn's character--she does not want to protect Agatha but has to, even though she has been able to break the voice command for Lucrezia. [So she can break commands currently given but not the old ones?] I'll admit that Von Pinn does seem a little insane--but given that her former charge, Klaus Barry died (which to her, as the muse of protection, would be failing), and that her mind was apparently switched into an alternate body--well gee, I think I might go a little crazy too!

~NewFavConstruct, Saturday Oct. 30th, 2010

Von Pinn was originally Van Rijn's creation: Otilia, the Muse of Protection. But somehow, she came to be in the "care" of the Lady Lucrezia, who did a body-swap, putting Otilia into the construct body known as Von Pinn. She was probably given an order by Lucrezia; something along the lines of "Protect my child/children". When she failed to protect Klaus Barry, that was probably seen as a double failure- she was (theoretically) charged by Van Rijn, her beloved creator, to protect people. (After all, she is the Muse of Protection.) She has also been charged by her latest mistress to protect Klaus Barry specifically. She has failed. It's understandible taht she was driven mad.

I'm also guessing that Agatha's appearance caused quite a stir inside Von Pinn. She faced conflicting orders: to keep the Heterodyne Girl safe to others, and to protect Lucrezia Mongfish's child from harm. Eventually, she comes to terms by reinterpretting the orders of her creator, Van Rijn, and focusing on protecting Agatha. And I think that, now that she's back in a nice, strong clank body instead of that "weak" flesh one, her outlook is brighter and she is perhaps less bitter about protecting Agatha. HeterodyneGirl (talk) 21:25, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Another possibility apparently not much considered so far is that Agatha is a clone of Euphrosynia Heterodyne, whom Otillia killed and watched over from the tomb, deciding to "reinterpret" her beloved king's order after Euphrosynia's betrayal of Andronicus Valois and the Shining Coalition. Then came Lucrezia with her plan to bring a return of the legend, in more ways than one. The Other as threat to Europe, a new Storm King as saviour - and her in the body of a "returned" Euphrosynia Heterodyne.

Potential Hole in the Plot

How did it happen that Otilia was placed in charge of the welfare of Klaus Barry Heterodyne? And then, subsequently, charged with "taking care of" Agatha Heterodyne? We know that she practically went mad with grief at the demise of Klaus Barry, but when and who, placed her in charge of Agatha's welfare? When and how did that happen? Wasn't she taken aboard Castle Wulfenbach subsequent to the tragic occurrences at Castle Heterodyne?--Billy Catringer 02:04, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

Klaus did not return until three years after the attack on the castle, and the new Castle Wulfenbach wasn't created until after that point, so there was plenty of time. My interpretation is that the orders were not "Here is Agatha, take care of her", but "Take care of the baby I'm going to have" (on top of the protection orders given in previous centuries). Argadi 13:05, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

I think that it's been established that Lucrezia has a certain amount of authority over von Pinn. So, she probably issued an order along the lines of: "Take care of my child" or "Take care of my children". So, von Pinn had to take care of Klaus Barry, and when he died she was torn up with grief; there's probably some physical/mental repurcussions when a construct (or other creation) disobeys their master. So then, when she discovered Agatha, she was faced with the dilemma of conflicting orders: Keep the Heterodyne safe (for everyone else)? Or protect the daughter of Lucrezia Mongfish? HeterodyneGirl (talk) 21:06, September 25, 2012 (UTC)