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So which one is Loremistress Milvistle? --Geoduck42 (talk) 05:33, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

My guess to LoreMistress Milvistle is the one with the jewelry in her hair. I wonder if the one with her face covered is Lady Jenka? __ Doug Relyea (can't edit signed in , again!!!!)
You still think Jenka could be a Geister? Even though she's a Jäger (including Mechanicsburg accent, right?) who's been around for centuries, long enough to have had a relationship (of some sort) with the original Storm King before he married Euphrosynia? ⚙Zarchne (talk) 16:38, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I still think so. Why? She couldn't/can't smell the Heterodyne. Back in Zum-zum, Jenka was ready to commit all manner of Lese Majeste on Agatha before Othar annoyingly interrupted. here and here . Just as the Geisterdamen departing Sturmhalten were unaffected by the proximity of the deep road to the sewer. __ Doug Relyea
Jenka encountered Agatha suddenly and in the midst of combat. There had to be plenty of other smells in the air at the time. Her contact was brief. And she was a personal bodyguard to Euphrosynia two centuries earlier. The Geisters don't show up in Europa until AFTER Agatha's birth and subsequent kidnapping. AND her eyes have pupils, her skin is grey, not white.. Let's add General Khr1zhan not noticing until he smelled his hand after touching Agatha. Fred1740 (talk) 18:13, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
And all the Jagers Agatha interacted with in Mechanicsburg only noticed that she smelled 'good', they didn't immediately recognize her as a Heterodyne. I expect it has something to do with the memory problem mentioned by Trelawny in regards to Albia -- there's an upper limit to the number of things a human brain can remember, and Jagers are all centuries old and don't tend to be intellectual sorts to begin with. But yeah, the Argurons have far more in common with Geisterdamen, physically, than Jenka does. (Also, my money is on Hood Geister as Milvistle, and Ponytail Geister as someone still living we will eventually meet.) PhoenixTalion (talk) 21:33, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Well, assuming you mean Beetleburg: in the novelization the sergeant figures it out, which explains how Agatha's clothes end up with the Generals. (I do agree that the olfaction evidence is meaningless, though.) ⚙
But as for the Argurons, I was just thinking a couple of days ago that the Silver Lands could contain a Citadel of Silver Light. Just make a little note of that... ⚙Zarchne (talk) 22:29, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I meant Beetleburg. Also, I am 1000% convinced the Citadel of Silver Light is on/within the moon, for several reasons. PhoenixTalion (talk) 00:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Have we met that monster in the third panel before? Kind of funny in the second panel how the fragments of different scenes suggest a literal broken mirror. And, why does Tarvek sound so surprised in panel 4? Didn't he know this aspect of the story all along, even if misled about the glorious quest? Bkharvey (talk) 07:21, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

This appears to be that monster . Fred1740 (talk) 10:16, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Ah, I forgot about that. Thanks! Bkharvey (talk) 17:07, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
I made a Geisterbeast stub. Zibbiz (talk) 18:24, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
The crab and dappled light in the bottom left fragment of the broken Gate suggests that Mirrors can work underwater, which is kind of neat. Good thing it wasn't calibrated for matter transmission… Zibbiz (talk) 21:51, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Fred's comment above about the Geisters not being in Europa until after Agatha's kidnapping made me notice something strange about their whole story line: Lucrezia knew from the beginning that she needed a whole race of warriors to guard Agatha, presumably because she had seen while in their future that there would be an attempt to kidnap her. And yet she was surprised when the attempt was successful. How is that possible? How would she witness the attempt without witnessing its result? Bkharvey (talk) 20:35, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Easy. "It was the time of prophecy, beyond which even our Lady could not see." It looks like there is a cutoff for Lucrezia's definite knowledge of of the future (as opposed to outcomes she might have planned for when she was trapped... wherever she was.) My personal suspicion is that it ends with the existence of Lucrezia's original human body, but that's entirely speculation on my part. The introduction to the most recent novel also includes this exchange between Lucrezia and her Geisterdame bodyguard (who, mysteriously, ends up with her throat slit in the Great Attack, when presumably she would have been down to do whatever Lucrezia asked.)
“Your slave speaks truly, Lady. Her impertinence rises in a legitimate cause. If she who you carry within you is indeed the Holy Child—” Lucrezia ended this by slapping Glimtockka sharply across the face. “Silence!” She stamped her foot. “I’ve told you that stupid prophecy is wrong! It is predicated on failure! My failure!”
The cutoff for Lucrezia's definite knowledge is whenever Van Rijn captured her. In theory, she was trapped in the hermitorium for centuries and didn't know what had transpired. Y'know - assuming she has a limited number of time jumps and can't just go relive those centuries.DLcygnet (talk) 19:28, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
This also raises the interesting possibility that Lucrezia *did* know her plans were destined to fail, but in typical Spark fashion believed she was clever enough to cheat fate. PhoenixTalion (talk) 21:33, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

This is fascinating. Previously, Zola implied that the Geisters who rebelled had realized Lucrezia herself was an usurper, but this tells us that Loremistress Milvistle's faction was still loyal to Lucrezia -- or at least, the Lucrezia who gave birth to Agatha. I have a wholeass theory/headcanon/meta/whatever you want to call it trying to figure out what Lucrezia's plan has been at various points in her existence, and the possibility that she is at points working against other iterations of herself, but it's... a mess, for obvious reasons. PhoenixTalion (talk) 21:57, 3 September 2021 (UTC)


Also, I just wanted to post Vrin's extended account of these events in the novelization of Clockwork Princess. (Mods, let me know if reposting this long of an excerpt isn't kosher.) PhoenixTalion (talk) 21:57, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

“Since the beginning of all things, we have served our eternal lady. No matter how long her absence from our presence, we knew she would always return to us.
“From when I was a novice, she visited us frequently, always in the same lovely aspect. She helped us increase our crops. Helped us make stronger children. Those were happy days in the City of Silver Light.” Vrin paused.
“But then the Day of Reckoning occurred, as we knew it must. As the Lady herself had foretold. She came to us in high distress. The Gods were at war, and as had been foretold, she carried within her own body the Holy Child.
“It was the Time of the Final Prophecy, beyond which even Our Lady could not see. We were to prepare for The Great Battle, even though we knew she would be taken from us.
“But still we had hope. For we had been given a task. Our only task, the reason we had been created. We were to protect the Holy Child. Protect her from those whom we knew would try to steal her away from us. “We knew when they would come. We knew what they would do. We knew their powers and abilities—”
Vrin paused. Agatha could see that she was shaken by these memories. The two Geisterdamen reached out and touched her shoulders in support. She took a deep breath and continued.
“And yet, knowing all that, we still failed. We failed utterly. The enemies of our Lady were too strong. Our Lady was taken from us and the Child had been stolen. There were no more prophecies. It was The End of History. The end of our world.”
Vrin stared bleakly at Agatha in silence. Then, astonishingly, she smiled. “But when your world ends, apparently a new one glides in to take its place. The sun rose. The stars wheeled across the sky. Sisters realized they were getting hungry. So... we sat down and ate. It was the last meal and the first.
“We bid farewell to the dead. We rebuilt The City of Silver Light. We welcomed New Children. We worshipped the Lady, because we had never worshipped anything else. Perhaps, wherever she was, our prayers would help her.”
Vrin took a deep sigh. “And then, our prayers were answered. They were answered with rage and fury. With pain and fire. Our Mistress did indeed return. This time, she appeared in her most terrible aspect, The Lady of Sharp Crystal, who had not been seen for over fifty generations. She purged the High Priesthood with the burning light when she learned that we had failed to protect the Child. She purged the Commanders. The Artisans. We feared she would purge us all.
“After the burning, she embarked upon a Great Building. Nonstop we worked. Almost two hundred of our sisters died before she was finished. Then came the greatest punishment of all.
“Three thousand of The White Elite were selected. Warriors, scientists, adjudicators, facilitators— none of the clans were spared. We were assembled and then marched through the One-Sided Door and exiled here, to The Shadow World.”
Vrin looked tired now. “Our only task is to search this wretched place until we find the missing child.” The other two Geisterdamen again gently stroked her shoulders. Vrin reached up and softly patted their hands. “We have been here... through fourteen winters now, with no one we could trust but ourselves.”
She released the other women’s hands and leaned towards Agatha. “Even if we found her, I... suspect we will never be allowed to return to the City of Silver Light. No one ever returns through the One-Sided Door, though many swore they would try. We will die here.” Suddenly, she straightened up and her gaze hardened. “But if we do succeed, our sisters back home may once again see The Lady in her Joyous Aspect, and once again live in happiness.”

Thanks. This does bring up a side point of discussion. This passage mentions children. Other sites have speculated on Geisterdame reproduction. We have not seen or heard of Geisterherren. My suggestion is they are parthenogenic. They are physically identical, as Othar reported. Fred1740 (talk) 23:23, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I'm certain they are. It was confirmed in the splinter timeline of Othar's twitter that he and Oslaka could not have children, and several of the phrasings in this passage -- "she carried within her own body the Holy Child" and "welcomed New Children" -- suggest to me they aren't merely parthenogenic, but created by some sort of device, like their own version of hive engines. I don't think they're created full-grown, since they have a word/concept for 'child' and on the previous page, Vrin specifies a 'pink child' when Agatha pretends to assume they were looking for another young Geister. I wanna see creepycute little Geistermadchen. PhoenixTalion (talk) 00:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
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