Discussion for comic for 2019-09-13 (Friday) ✣ .
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Well that answers a few of our questions. They are revenants, but Geoduck and Violetta don't have to feel icky about what Albia can do because it's just a temporary hack. And yes, that was what Albia meant. New question: Are all those shots affecting whichever instance of Lucrezia this is? Or will the ninjas end up dead? And what does "in this state" mean? Is there some other state in which she can cure them? And what's going on with Tweedle and Oggie down in the corner there? Oggie's face seems to have become all mouth (like that horse). Bkharvey (talk) 06:20, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
... And why are Gil and Tarvek rubbernecking instead of getting on with it? They're the ones Albia is "buying time" for. Bkharvey (talk) 06:22, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- Those are new and powerful guns from what Ogie was saying, so maybe enough to damage that body, if not break it. Might help drain some of that powerful weapon. For the "state" Albia means when she is not forced to channel just a small measure of her power through a loyal subject; in her true form, she probably could cure them. I daresay she will be going searching and purging for all potential Revenants after this, if she has not already located them during the 2 year timeskip. Oggie under the effect of the rapid-healing potion, and Gil and Tarvek distracted by a showdown between The Other and the Immortal Queen--not something you see every day. 'Black' Victor Cachat (talk) 14:23, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- Oh! I was thinking "this state" meant state of the revenants, not state of herself. But you're right of course. Bkharvey (talk) 14:30, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- -- But wait, does that mean Violetta and Geoduck are right to wonder why Albia hasn't been curing revenants all along? Bkharvey (talk) 16:26, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- I've been thinking about that too. I mean, one answer would be that Albia is bluffing here, i.e. that she can't permanently cure revenants at all, but it suits her to insinuate that she can, to project an illusion of strength.
- I think that it's more likely that she can cure them, but there's some severe downside. Maybe she can only "cure" them in the way that the Baron pretended to "cure" Gil, by using one form of permanent mind control to supplant another. Or she can only cure people by killing and revivifying them, with a low success rate. Or she would damage their minds so badly that they would have to be completely rebuilt ✣ . Or maybe she just doesn't want to fill up her Queenly schedule with curing revenants from all over Europa. Hard to know. Quantheory (talk) 03:15, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
- It could also be that Albia can’t see deep into someone’s mind without focused effort. Recall a few pages ago when she said that the gun-wielding people under Lu’s control had “normal minds”. It could be that back in the day Albia assumed, as did Klaus(?), that the Shamblers were the only revenents and ignored normal-looking people, not bothering to look deeply. Once the ninjas got within the room, she could see what had been done and override Lucrezia. 9thGeneral (talk) 17:47, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
- "Rubbernecking"? Could you stay focus on a task totally, not noticing some one blasting through a door by vaporizing it? Followed by a loud confrontation between a demigod and a super villain involving a exchange of firepower? They are momentarily distracted by that. You wouldn't even notice that? --Fred1740 (talk) 11:07, September 15, 2019 (UTC)
- You might be surprised the number of times I've said "yes, dear" and continued on my problem. And we need them focusing to really fix the problem, and sparks can really get ✣ in the zone ✣ when working. Argadi (talk) 11:34, September 15, 2019 (UTC)
- The blasting through the door was dramatic, but it was expected. Sure, they might jump when it happens, but their mindset in advance should have been "we know bad stuff is coming, but Albia's and Zeetha's and Violetta's and Oggie's job is to protect us. Our job is to keep working no matter what." Bkharvey (talk) 11:42, September 15, 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, right. Oh hum, dullsville. It's just Lucrezia, whom no body was expecting. Just everyday occurrences. Nothing to see. Ignoring your wife is one thing, would you ignore a swat team smashing down your door? Anyone who wouldn't be surprised by this and turn to look would live a very short life. And, once again, we are talking about a few seconds here, not minutes in which to contemplate priorities. --Fred1740 (talk) 01:05, September 16, 2019 (UTC)
"You are never more vulnerable when you think yourself in-vulnerable." --me, MadCat221 (talk) 06:33, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- That principle applies to Lucrezia and Albia both. Bosda Di'Chi (talk) 14:37, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
Seems like Albia is using her projected presence to override Revenancy. Interesting that Albia-in-Trelawney says that “this will merely buy you some time”. Clearly she is not going to stick around much longer. ➤
- Five pages ago ✣ she said "You will have to do the procedure; we will buy you time." Here she's just making the same point, namely, she isn't going to be part of removing Lu from A. I don't think there's any implication about how long she'll stay -- although there's other evidence, namely all that sweat, that it can't last forever. Bkharvey (talk) 14:28, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
Oggie dun look so gut, I think we are seeing his teeth since his head is back with his mouth open. ➤
Non-insightful prediction: Lucrezia kills the Revenants but is somewhat weakened in the process. AiT collapses from overload and Albia leaves. The support crew battle Lu and are losing until uber-Oggie leaps into action. Meanwhile, Gil and Tarvek get Lu out of Agatha. Unfettered Agatha does cool sparky stuff. Lucrezia flees possibly with the trapped Lu That Was In Agatha. LTWIA does not end up in the hands of the forces of good or Albia. 9thGeneral (talk) 13:14, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
With all of the earlier concern about repairing the machine to remove and contain the Lucrezia in Agatha...➤
I wonder if anyone (*cough* Tarvek *cough*) has realized that another self contained Lucrezia has waltzed in, and is currently on the wrong side of a whole buncha people holding guns? SillyOne (talk) 14:47, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- So, you mean, there's no need to trap Agatha's copy? But maybe the cage they plan to trap her in would prevent her acting, like the copy in Zola, and unlike the copy in Lunevka. Bkharvey (talk) 02:28, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
- Action isn't just moving your limbs. Albia's goal, I'm suggesting, is to get a copy of Lucrezia's mind that can be examined directly, but that can't lie, mislead, try to talk people into freeing her, etc. Just like Zola rooting around ✣ in her copy. Bkharvey (talk) 09:47, September 15, 2019 (UTC)
Interesting that Albia is still saying that all of this is just about stalling, i.e. the possibility that they could actually win this fight, then be able to extract Lucrezia at their leisure, is not raised at all. If they are just "buying time", and it's inevitable that Lucrezia will eventually win this fight, then what's the plan for after LiA is extracted? Run away? Hide and wait for reinforcements?
- I'm not sure I'm right about this, but I think there's no doubt in Albia's mind that she's going to win the battle eventually. But she's afraid that (as it was prior to this page) a slew of ninjas running amok would mess up the delicate equipment with which they're going to extract Lu from Agatha. So she's offering to keep the battle out of the way of the transfer, following which they can have a general free-for-all and eventually win. But when it's all against Lucrezia, the actual current situation, the running-amok part is avoidable, and it's just a question of not letting Lu send any lightning bolts toward Gil and Tarvek. Bkharvey (talk) 02:56, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, now I think of it, why can't Albia do the same thing to clank-Lucrezia that she did to Agatha-Lucrezia? Wrap her up in white tape. Bkharvey (talk) 15:32, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
Also, I wonder what Martellus is holding. It could really be any round thing, but I wonder if it's a watch, i.e. even with all this going on he's still timing to see how long it takes his potion to affect Oggie. Quantheory (talk) 18:06, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- Martellus is rubbernecking, just like Gil and Tarvek. :-( Bkharvey (talk) 02:28, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
- To be fair, I would be too. It may have been several days for us, but for them, Lucrezia just broke in about 30 seconds ago, and if Albia can't convincingly hold her off for much longer than that, there's no point in continuing to work. And Martellus seems to be passively monitoring Oggie until he either heals or dies, so he has nothing better to do. Quantheory (talk) 03:15, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
P.S.: Moon staff Lucrezia has eyelashes. Quantheory (talk) 18:13, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- And no readily apparent nose. 9thGeneral (talk) 19:10, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- Yep! I believe that everything we see on her is synthetic. Interesting that she made a face with hair and teeth, but not a nose. Quantheory (talk) 03:15, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
So, I'm now wondering why Albia didn't want to pull Lucrezia out of Agatha back in the garden. She put on a show of not being able to resist "improving" Agatha in the process, but it seems that she's actually pretty disciplined. ➤
- Yeah, I agree. My impression is that her "improvement" speech was always a bit of a bluff. Not sure why (I can think of lots of unlikely reasons), but she wanted Agatha and friends to fix it. Quantheory (talk) 05:13, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
I've been rereading this recent page ✣ . ➤
So I'm wondering about this power source business. It sure sounds as if Albia drains power from her garden of sparks. But, you know, if that were the case, wouldn't she be happy, maybe happier than not, to collect male sparks? No good if what you want is good counselors, but if you're just going to drain their vital spirit or whatever, you wouldn't want to do that to a perfectly good woman if there are men around to be drained. ➤
- The other sparks she mentioned are Tarvek and Gil, who currently are more tangled up in continental politics, so maybe she can't add them to her garden for that reason? It would be much weirder for them to stay in England forever since they have obligations and ambitions elsewhere, while Agatha could stay in England, "trying to free Mechanicsburg", unsuccessfully, for decades. So it may not be a gender/sex thing.
- But at the same time, maybe it is. In which case, it's worth noting that the "Ancient God-Queens" have all been portrayed as women, with Snacky being the only male "God-Spark" example.
- Also, there is no evidence that Prince Aaronev threw any men into the summoning engine, and Lucrezia has only ever suggested that she would inhabit women and (as it appears to me) feminine clanks. Is there some outside technical or social reason for that, or is Lucrezia refusing to even consider inhabiting a male or masculine-presenting body? Quantheory (talk) 05:13, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
- Aaronev was looking for the lost daughter of Lucrezia. I'm sure the latter knew what sex her child was. As for Lu's own body preferences, each of the ones we know about was a target of opportunity; I don't think there have been so many as to conclude that it's a policy. But if so, it has to have some deep connection with the God-Queens. Bkharvey (talk) 20:26, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
Ooh! Ooh! What if it turned out that whatever the power source is was responsible for sinking England into the ocean? After all, the same thing happened to Atlantis! ➤
But the most intriguing question is what Lucrezia means about her own sufferings. I don't think we're all going to decide she's a misunderstood good guy, but I so want to know her story. Also, if L-in-A knows the story, it means the Holy Machine was impressed with a version of Lu late (body time) in her story, after all that mechanical stuff happened. Bkharvey (talk) 03:39, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
- I honestly don't know about this. Lucrezia is weird. She is a psychopathic, almost ditzy, gloating villain, who is beaten in battle after battle, and that's who we see in person, and in the apocryphal Heterodyne stories.
- But she's also a mysterious and terrifying Goddess, which is what we are told her backstory is by Albia, van Rijn, and the Geisters. And there's a tension there. I don't think that Lucrezia will ever be anything but a villain. But I think there's something we don't know about her. Is she more capable than she seems, or is she leaning on her time travel? Is there a greater "The Other", who she only serves, even if she thinks she's in charge? In short, WTF? Quantheory (talk) 05:13, September 14, 2019 (UTC)